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Neck problem, what would you do?
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=41854		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  ZekeM [ Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Neck problem, what would you do?
Ok so I'm currently carving a Honduran mahogany neck and ran into an issue I have not yet encountered. I'm seeking the wisdom on here of what to do in this situation.

So while carving the neck a pit/hole appeared. It was enclosed in the neck blank and not visible from the outside. I'm guessing it was some sorta void that just grew in the tree??

Image

So what causes this hole and how can you tell if these will be present in a piece of wood? Or can you?

Also how would you fix the problem

A. Fill with sanding dust and glue

B. drill out the void and fill with a "plug" of wood from the same neck blank

C. Trash the neck and start over

D. Other

Thanks for the help guys
Author:  the Padma [ Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
WHat me would do don't matter...its what you gonna do that does.
Author:  DennisK [ Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
Huh, that's a weird looking little thing. But yeah, if it was entirely enclosed in the wood, then it's probably natural, and there's nothing you could have done to find out about it in advance. Most would probably trash it and move on. I'd try doing one of those fancy wrap-around neck inlays using a dremel router and veneers. But if you're keeping the guitar for yourself or giving it to a friend, then just drill and plug. Make sure the plug's grain is going the same direction as the neck there, not endgrain like a dowel. But it will probably still be visible. I suppose you could give it an opaque finish to hide it, if opaque finishes don't offend your sense of aesthetics.
Author:  Daniel Minard [ Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
Oh... Bummer!
I found something similar in a neck I built last year. It was for a commission, so I scrapped it.
If you have a small gouge, you could try carving out an inch long "U" and, using the same chisel cut a filler from some scraps of the same wood. I've done that with dented or cracked tops & the repairs were almost invisible. White glue worked best for me. It'd be a pity to toss the neck after all the work you've put into it.
Author:  Josh H [ Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
I ran into this a few years back. The guitar was not a commission but a demo and I was on a really tight deadline. I drilled and plugged with a small piece of Mahogany that came from the neck blank. As has already been stated you have to pay close attention to the grain orientation. I glued the plug with hide glue. To help mask it I painted some dark grain lines the passed over the edges of the plug. In the end it was still visible if you were looking right at it, but I think it was as well hidden as possible. If it had of been a commission I would have scrapped it and started over.

Josh
Author:  mcgr40 [ Mon Nov 04, 2013 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
That is a borer hole caused by a south american bug that is common in big leaf mahogany.
Sorry it will be hard to hide.
I suppose you could make a jig to hold the neck and rout a slot for contrasting veneer. Sounds difficult, but might be possible, if you think about it. It is very near the center line.
Author:  nyazzip [ Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
you need to ask yourself, is this just the "tip of the iceberg"?, ie, is there a whole network of boreholes in the neck? if so, it would be a very weak/unstable neck. book a flight somewhere and have the TSA xray it...? know any radiologists...?
Author:  George L [ Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
If the guitar being built absolutely, positively has to have a flawless neck, then I'd make a new one. I would not scrap this one, though. Such imperfections give wood character; it's distinctive, like a beauty mark on a supermodel... or something.
Author:  ZekeM [ Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
If the guitar was for me I'd leave it because I feel it adds character, but it's for a friend. I may just have to ask him if he cares about the spot being there.

Also if this hole was caused from a borer beetle wouldn't it have left a hole from the outside in where it bored into the wood??
Author:  Dkeddy27 [ Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
Save it for another build! You will never hide it, so use it on a dark stained model or a relic style
Author:  Hesh [ Mon Nov 04, 2013 1:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
What Josh said if it's a keeper, drill, turn a plug again paying attention to grain direction, fill, level, and move on. If the possibility of other imperfections bothers you I learned from Terry Kennedy here on the OLF that X-rays can be very helpful. I made friends with my vet and he is happy to x-ray stuff for me in return for keeping his 335 in top shape.

If it's a guitar for sale or a commission I would replace the neck and keep this one for my man cave guitar fleet.
Author:  DennisK [ Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
ZekeM wrote:
Also if this hole was caused from a borer beetle wouldn't it have left a hole from the outside in where it bored into the wood??

Only for little while if the tree was still alive.
Author:  Spyder [ Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
Gee folks, this is a no brainer! From all the ideas Iv'e had to come up with, this one is super easy. Drill it round, then plug it with a plug from the same wood as the fret board. Will be unique, look great, and the contrast will add interest to the design without looking like you tried to hide something, which is easy to do when trying to match grain orientation.
Author:  WudWerkr [ Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:38 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
Spyder wrote:
Gee folks, this is a no brainer! From all the ideas Iv'e had to come up with, this one is super easy. Drill it round, then plug it with a plug from the same wood as the fret board. Will be unique, look great, and the contrast will add interest to the design without looking like you tried to hide something, which is easy to do when trying to match grain orientation.



+1
Author:  mcgr40 [ Tue Nov 05, 2013 12:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
If you are worried about the hole, you can stick a wire down into it and see how far it goes- this little tie strap from a bread loaf will go all the way through this board. Remember its hard to outthink a bug.
These borer holes in mahogany are often seen inside the lumber and overgrown.
Author:  Corky Long [ Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
Here's another option. I can't tell if you have already have attached the fretboard. What about a laminated neck? Make up a little jig, rip the neck on the bandsaw, symmetrically, and glue in two strips of a contrasting wood where the hole is (and on the opposite side).
Author:  ZekeM [ Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
The hole is not deep at all I can see the bottom of it. I have already attached the fretboard and would hate to remove it, again. (I had to remove it once already when I snapped the extension off).

The guitar is for a good friend of mine and I'll be sending him pictures of it and let him make the call on whether the hole is an issue to him or not. If it is, I'll make him a new one and save this neck for a personal guitar seeing that I don't mind little imperfections like that. To me it makes the instrument more interesting and "genuine" in the sense that it shows that it's made from trees and trees ain't perfect.
Author:  Parser [ Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
I would inlay something in that spot....it's not a bug, it's a feature!!

Trev
Author:  ZekeM [ Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
So talked to my buddy and he doesn't mind the hole. His words were "I like it, it lets me know that it's mine". So I just filled the hole with a glue/mahogany dust mixture and then sanded it back down flush. Threw some shellac on to see just what it would look like and make sure he still approved. Which he did.

Image

The only downside is that since we last talked he saw my challenge guitar and loved the 5pc neck. He wants a stripe down his neck now. Not sure how I'm gonna quite pull that one off without removing the headstock veneer, fretboard, and cutting this neck in half. Oh well maybe I'll figure something out......any ideas??
Author:  mcgr40 [ Wed Nov 06, 2013 3:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
Now I see that spot beside the hole is the scar where the tree "healed".
The expalnation I give for spots like this is that I usually say "it used to be a tree".
I am not sure if there are bugs that eat carbon /graphite(I bet they are working(evolving) on it though).
Worms got to eat, too.
Author:  Corky Long [ Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
If he really wants a 5 piece neck, I'd start again. Easier to start fresh than start removing headstock veneers and fretboards.
Author:  Goodin [ Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
I'm curious about what's going on on the other side of the neck. That feature along with the angle of the bug hole makes me think the hole is going across the neck, and perhaps deeper than expected. ? If so it might present a structural issue when you string it up.

"The only downside is that since we last talked he saw my challenge guitar and loved the 5pc neck. He wants a stripe down his neck now. Not sure how I'm gonna quite pull that one off without removing the headstock veneer, fretboard, and cutting this neck in half. Oh well maybe I'll figure something out......any ideas??"

Well if it were me I would tell him it was too late, IF there wasn't the bug hole issue. But since the client might want a 5 piece neck and there is the bug hole issue, I would start over and build the 5 piece neck. I would have scrapped that buggy neck anyways. It's always a bummer to have start over some part of a build, but it's always good practice.
Author:  ZekeM [ Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:03 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
I'm thinking that the discoloration on the other side of the neck is where the little bug gnawed it's way in and then the tree healed over time causing that spot to look different.

He doesn't necessarily want a 5 PC neck. He just wants a stripe down it like one. I may just rout a slot and inlay a strip down the neck.
Author:  Goodin [ Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
Yeah but it still seems like it might be a structural issue. Looks like an area of weakness to me.

That is possible but you would have to make up a jig to hold the router and slide it down the neck. Might be just as easy to make a new neck.
Author:  SteveSmith [ Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Neck problem, what would you do?
It sucks to redo something as time consuming as a neck. I have redone bridges, neck, fretboard, sides (just before attaching the top and back), neck block, tail block and rosette (after box was done). But, every time I have bitten the bullet and rebuilt a part that just wasn't up to my standard I am always very glad that I did it. Not saying you should but it is something to consider.
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